Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre

Batmancaver wrote:

the onbgoing issues that are around at the moment do seem to be caused by some UCET members acting irresponsibly.

With regards to the cemetary shaft, please let us know who the Grosvenor member was because no-one else who is asked will say who it was. The reason that access was being restricted to the shaft is simply because the ginging was very unstable, so for safety reasons they decided to fix the ginging and then explore the shaft. After several weeks work they eventually dropped down to the bottom of the shaft to find that UCET members had been down the shaft in the meantime. Not only was this very frustrating to the people who had done the work on the shaft but they then found that whoever had dropped down into the mine had irresponsibly trampled clog prints on the floor and broken artefacts. Incidently it is known that it was UCET members who went down because they left some identifiable evidence.

With regards to other sites in the area then it is known that UCET members have been caught in sites that they do not have permission to be in by the landowner and when accosted have said that they are members of the Grosvenor.

Karl

I Have personally been given permission from the landowner to enter this site whenever i see fit he also told me that he dosnt mind anyone going down or to it he is the owner end of it. I also know the 3 people and there names that have been down it and i wonder why you would want to know them are you going to give them 100lines each saying (I must not enter Grosvenor Caving clubs highly fortified concrete and steel shaft) oh hang on im sorry its not locked is it well theres a first. as for the cap itself how did Grosvenor Caving Club get permission from Flintshire County Council to remove the beehive cap or fence that surrounded the shaft placed in the early 1980s. not only 100yards away is there another highly fortified cap bearing the name Grosvenor Caving Club in the corner of it (pictures are available should UCET or any other explorer request them) i see empire building currently being brought to everyones attention. ooh arrr

I'd like to remind everyone concerned that caving or mine exploration clubs/groups DONT control access or have any legal authority to do so. You are simply adopting a location to look after in terms of conservation and also access information. The Landowner retains this access right and so if the landowner gives permissions for someone or a group to visit the site, then the club who, lets say "looks after" or has adopted the location have no option to comply and lump it. Its in everyone's interests to stop the bickering. If groups start empire building and get above themselves with unreasonable access control and restrict information most importantly access information then the best way to deal with these people is simply to bypass them!

I think UCET should remember that if they dont work for the common good of all interested people (so that includes club and non-club) they will simply be by-passed.

The 1st thing UCET should do is have easy to find public access details about any location they look after (I wont use the word control as they dont). Access details should be put on any gates, no access details on gates then they cant be complied with can they?! Its an old old problem, of who to contact, if you look after a location make sure people interested know what to do to get in!

As for the Grosvenor, well they are already bypassed and mean little.

I am not going to lower myself to Miles' level. If he does not have the good manners and consideration to allow somebody to continue a dig to it's completion without somebody else breaking in and disturbing the ongoing works then so be it. We do at least now know exactly what kind of a bar steward he is, with total lack of consideration to other cavers.

Marty, if you have been given permission by the landowner to go down cemetary shaft then good for you. No-one is complaining that assess is denied to everyone, however, the shaft was capped/covered so that the ginging could be repaired so as to ensure that nothing fell onto anyone. With all due respect, but if those cavers who went down cannot recognise dodgy ginging and continue with a trip regardless then they really need to stop caving now before they become a burden to the local CRO. No-body likes carrying a dead body out of a system!

Incudentally, and I may be wrong, but does Flintshire own the land that it is upon, so what is their bearing on these situations? I seem to recall that up in that area that it was the Grosvenor Estates who have placed beehives on the shafts so as to make them safe in the 80's. As for some beehives being marked with GCC, I don't know the full story but I do know that some members in the 90's opened up some of the beehives and checked out the shafts below. They then remade the beehives. If they wanted to mark GCC on the beehive then so what? It's not as if they were claiming them as there own.

Ian, as for the trips were UCET cavers have been caught claiming to be GCC members, I don't know the full details or dates but I believe that it has been within the last couple of years. The end result is that for the GCC and UCET to continue with good will between the two clubs then some members need to operate in a more considerate manner.

Finally, for those who don't know, there is a history of cave and mine digs being poached in the past, or visited and trashed by other cavers. So if Grosvenor or North Wales or any other club for that matter wants to put a tough cap on then can you blame them? There is a history of making caps as tough as possible and this trend continues today, but when there are cavers in the area with zero respect for the works of others then I believe that it will probably continue.

Now these are my final words on these matters on here, I think this has been stretched far enough. Sadly I now have to go and visit , my dying mother-in-law so I may not be back on this site for a few days. Lets hope that there is good news about OG by then.

Cheers
Karl

Batmancaver wrote:

I am not going to lower myself to Miles' level. If he does not have the good manners and consideration to allow somebody to continue a dig to it's completion without somebody else breaking in and disturbing the ongoing works then so be it. We do at least now know exactly what kind of a bar steward he is, with total lack of consideration to other cavers.

You what?

Since when did moving a bit of dirt around give you a right to keep everyone else out of somewhere?

The trouble with you lot is summed up perfectly by the final word of that paragraph: you're cavers, with all the emotional baggage that comes with it: "Oooh look there's a hole! Let's see if we can set up a committee and then we can do things properly: we'll start by keeping the riff-raff out."

What on earth do you think the likes of Miles are going to do? Fill your dig in? Nick your spade? Write "Milez woz ere" on the wall in crayon?

Quite frankly, you're bad as golf clubs for daft rules, ideas and regulations: loosen up a bit!

The really crucial thing that you've entirely failed to comprehend is that it's a mine, not some dank cave: Miles and his ilk aren't cavers and never will be. The sooner you twig that people who visit mines are not by definition 'cavers' then you might be able to see the world from someone else's point of view.

Batmancaver wrote:

Marty, if you have been given permission by the landowner to go down cemetary shaft then good for you. No-one is complaining that assess is denied to everyone, however, the shaft was capped/covered so that the ginging could be repaired so as to ensure that nothing fell onto anyone. With all due respect, but if those cavers who went down cannot recognise dodgy ginging and continue with a trip regardless then they really need to stop caving now before they become a burden to the local CRO. No-body likes carrying a dead body out of a system!

'Cavers' again.

I'm sure you're an expert in assessing ginging and yes, your committee is probably right in keeping mine explorers out of places where only experienced cavers can be trusted :roll

Batmancaver wrote:

Finally, for those who don't know, there is a history of cave and mine digs being poached in the past, or visited and trashed by other cavers.

Grow a pair, ffs! If it's so damned important that nobody else gets to see the far end of your dig before you do that you have to spend weeks defending it with steel and concrete, then you really do need to get out more.



And while I'm at it, would you (UCET) kindly stop behaving like complete arses in mines, then uploading the footage to YouTube: it's childish and merely encourages other idiots to get themselves into situations they might not be able to cope with. It also does absolutely nothing to help relationships with landowners, who are disturbed by the thought that a bunch of glory-hunting, publicity-seeking buffoons are endangering themselves under their property. If you're trying to permanently get access lost to several mines in north Wales, you're going the right way about it.

Batmancaver wrote:

I am not going to lower myself to Miles' level.

I don't blame you one bit.

Batmancaver wrote:

If he does not have the good manners and consideration to allow somebody to continue a dig to it's completion without somebody else breaking in and disturbing the ongoing works then so be it.

No I'm sorry I don't. If you explore a mine and decide to do a dig in some part of it, I'm afraid I consider it unethical to lock the mine up whilst you do it. Especially as digs can, in many cases, last years and years. It's not fair and if you're not prepaired to accept other people looking around the mine whilst your project is ongoing, don't do the dig. Weight of opinion rather seems to be in my favour on this forum at least.

Batmancaver wrote:

We do at least now know exactly what kind of a bar steward he is

Not yet you don't! It'll all come out in the wash though, then you really will think I'm a bar steward.

Batmancaver wrote:

I am not going to lower myself to Miles' level. If he does not have the good manners and consideration to allow somebody to continue a dig to it's completion without somebody else breaking in and disturbing the ongoing works then so be it. We do at least now know exactly what kind of a bar steward he is, with total lack of consideration to other cavers.

At last GCC come out of the closet, you people are SO DIFFICULT to get any replies from, at least one good thing to come out of this debate is the opportunity to openly discuss the problems , we other mine explorers have over access issues in and around parts of North Wales, and for that I am grateful to the UCET .

Your main argument for resticting access to "others" seems to be summed up in your reply to Miles above,
"to allow somebody to continue a dig to it's completion", we all know full well that some digs take many years of on/off work, others simply will never get finished. It's not a valid reason for blocking or restricting access, frankly it's just an old excuse & a load of bollocks really, and you know it. The welsh caving clubs have been at loggerheads with each other for far too long, it's high time you all got together for the good of everybody that gets involved with exploring our industrial heritage, before some of us are too bloody old to appreciate it.

I don't know of any other mine explorer (not caver, don't do caves, or drains) that would wantonly damage any digging or other work encountered whilst exploring a mine system, infact some would like to help in some instances. The main reason for exploring said mine is photography and appreciating the history of the workings and industrial artefacts therein.

In Derbyshire we have a large mine where a few of us are involved in some major digs to clear blocked levels, we encourage others to go and help, we even leave the tools in place and help with guidance notes, why try and keep people out we will never finish all the work. Nor will you in North Wales!

The best example for access nowadays is the slate mine known as Cwmorthin. See link for details, http://www.cwmorthin.co.uk/ This is the way forward I believe and a model for how other mines can be made safe/secure for the general public and take the liability away from the landowner. If you are not already aware , the Cwmorthin mine is gated and locked with substantial metal gates, BUT, there are access details attached to the gates with a telephone number to contact, and access details on the web site, oh and e mail, should you wish to enter the mine, the lock is by combination so people can come and go as they please, no booking, no guides unless somebody needs one & then there are plenty of volunteers.

At Cwmorthin there are several sets of works and exploratory digs taking place and plenty of tools & equipment that can be used, anyone or everyone can take part, that way the jobs get done quicker and the mine does not have to be out of bounds for years on end.

There are individuals who I'm sure see no wrong with breaking locks off doors and lids, but if they were not there in the first instance then that would not need to happen, unfortunately once a lock has been removed there is no real way of making that site secure upon exit. IF, that gate/lid had a locking device that those explorers could use "officially" then it would secure the site after exit & I reckon 99% of people would lock it after they came out.

You should realise by now that unreasonable restictions, heavy lids and locks will NOT stop determined people. Many more of the excellent sites of North Wales should be opened up, there is a new generation of mine explorers now and with all the new technology abound it will only increase. It's time we all come together and help one another with our ongoing understanding of the toils of our forfathers, not slagging each other off and insulting people with childish remarks, wer'e not the local yobos at school any more.

As for Hendre spar mine, we have had 27 years of unhindered explorations of the mine, and to my understanding never had any serious accidents occur, why change that now. A good strong fence and clear warning signs are all that is really required on this site.

Oh and BTW Miles, is not to my mind a Bar Steward , seems quite a decent sensible sort of bloke to me,

vanoord wrote:

And while I'm at it, would you (UCET) kindly stop behaving like complete arses in mines, then uploading the footage to YouTube: it's childish and merely encourages other idiots to get themselves into situations they might not be able to cope with. It also does absolutely nothing to help relationships with landowners, who are disturbed by the thought that a bunch of glory-hunting, publicity-seeking buffoons are endangering themselves under their property. If you're trying to permanently get access lost to several mines in north Wales, you're going the right way about it.

The videos are just a bit of fun. When we are underground we all ensure we remain safe and we look out for each others safety. We do respect the mines (and their artefacts) just as we do with caves. They aren’t for publicity or glory seeking purposes and there is, of course, a lot of “theatrical licence” in the editing of the videos afterwards which obviously throws a different light on the trip (again, done just for fun). It isn’t our intention to cause any trouble or offence and I am sorry you don’t enjoy them.

Update on the Position with the Spar Mine;

At the UCET AGM (15th Jan 2009) the matter of the Spar Mine was raised and discussed at length. The following was determined;

1) The landowners agents had advised the landowner to seal the mine(s) as well as erect new fencing both around the mine entrances and along the side of a public footpath that goes close to it.

2) Our (now) vice-chairman did put forward an alternative proposal to keep the mine open (as outlined earlier in the thread).

3) The issue of the bats in the cave was not known about by the landowner until he was approached by Batmancaver (GCC & The Clwyd Bat Group?)


The landowner still intends to seal the entrance but, of course, now also needs to comply with legislation and ensure that the bats can freely use the entrance (ie. a bat grill/gate).

It was proposed (subject to the CCW approving same) that we create an entrance that the bats can continue to use as well as add a gate for everyone else to enter by and that we would do so at our cost (we will look into the possibility of a grant from the Cambrian Caving Council) in a trade off for maintaining human access with the landowner.

We have taken on board all of the positive comments on the forum and, subject to the CCW agreeing the plans, we would welcome anyone to help and assist in the creation of the new entrance and we also propose;

a) A sign will be erected with access details

b) If a padlock is fitted we will give a key to anyone who wants one (to keep) or if the padlock is a combination lock we will make the combination known (following the example of Cwmorthin)


The purpose of the exercise is to keep the mine open for all and we hope that everyone will support this project.

Batmancaver wrote:

Ian, as for the trips were UCET cavers have been caught claiming to be GCC members, I don't know the full details or dates but I believe that it has been within the last couple of years. The end result is that for the GCC and UCET to continue with good will between the two clubs then some members need to operate in a more considerate manner.

Karl

Karl,

I don't wish to drag out this issue but, following our AGM of the 15th Jan, none of the members are aware of any members of UCET being "caught" and claiming to be GCC. It also seems that you aren't able to provide any instances and I suspect that the ill feeling which exists within some members of the GCC may have lead to a "chinese whispers" syndrome.

It is our sincere wish that our relationship with the GCC (and other caving / mining communities) be on a good footing and none of the members of UCET either have or would do anything to damage that.

Regards,

Ian

I wholeheatedly agree with Ian. We're a good buch of people!

I would also like to add that the GCC members that I have spoken to since being a caver have all seemed like decent people, so I'm puzzled as to where all the perceived hostility towards UCET comes from. They seem like decent people to me. The UCET members I know are also decent people. We share a common interest in caving/mining and just happen to have joined different clubs for no real reason. I may have joined GCC if I had been introduced to them before UCET, thats just the way it goes for many of us! The arguments over access is tiring and I would love for us to get over it all so that we can coexist and work together. If there are a few rogues among us who like to sh*t stir then lets positively get them to sort their act out as they are ruining it for us all.

Hopefully at some point we could get to know each other better and learn to share.

Regards

Marc

Ian wrote:

Update on the Position with the Spar Mine;

At the UCET AGM (15th Jan 2009) the matter of the Spar Mine was raised and discussed at length. The following was determined;

1) The landowners agents had advised the landowner to seal the mine(s) as well as erect new fencing both around the mine entrances and along the side of a public footpath that goes close to it.

2) Our (now) vice-chairman did put forward an alternative proposal to keep the mine open (as outlined earlier in the thread).

3) The issue of the bats in the cave was not known about by the landowner until he was approached by Batmancaver (GCC & The Clwyd Bat Group?)


The landowner still intends to seal the entrance but, of course, now also needs to comply with legislation and ensure that the bats can freely use the entrance (ie. a bat grill/gate).

It was proposed (subject to the CCW approving same) that we create an entrance that the bats can continue to use as well as add a gate for everyone else to enter by and that we would do so at our cost (we will look into the possibility of a grant from the Cambrian Caving Council) in a trade off for maintaining human access with the landowner.

We have taken on board all of the positive comments on the forum and, subject to the CCW agreeing the plans, we would welcome anyone to help and assist in the creation of the new entrance and we also propose;

a) A sign will be erected with access details

b) If a padlock is fitted we will give a key to anyone who wants one (to keep) or if the padlock is a combination lock we will make the combination known (following the example of Cwmorthin)


The purpose of the exercise is to keep the mine open for all and we hope that everyone will support this project.

This is great news that the mine will hopfully be kept open following in the same steps of Cwmorthin all this forum none-sense could have been avoided if the likes of fees and empire building were not disscussed it is good that weve all put our heads together to solve the problem. As around 80% of us are not members of any clubs and just have the same interests. I would also recommend that any future plans or other ventures underground by caving clubs would take into account the other mine and cave exploring community. Please remember we deserve a say aswell

regards and good luck
Marty