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 Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre

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PostSubject: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Mon 24 Nov 2008, 5:33 am

Walk-throughs, comments, experiences, pictures please!


Last edited by AdminJ on Sun 18 Jan 2009, 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Sun 30 Nov 2008, 9:49 am

Well, the Meeting at the pub went very well, with a good turn out, including a few new members who'd just experienced OHA for the first time Smile

It did go to a vote at the end, with only the new members abstaining (not sure what to do I think!).

Here are the main points:
  • Mick was insistant that the costs would not be higher than £100 for the actual fence, with members such as John supplying the wood for fence posts, Doug & Mick jointly supplying the metal for the door etc and members supplying the "labour";

  • Mick agreed to approach the Brothers in respect of "Terms" whilst maintaining the informality, but agreed to ensure that no liability fell upon us if there is an incident. Also, Andy did some research prior to the Meeting to review some of the legal issues, and the general concensus was that a 6ft fence and Warning Signs is sufficient to prove that we took the necessary steps,

  • There was discussion of a £1 Fee for entry bandied about. This was expanded upon, and it was suggested and generally accepted that it be applicable to visiting Guests only, and was to be set aside to cover primary Installation and ongoing Maintenance Costs,

  • The term "Agents" was raised and it was suggested to Mick that when he approach the Brothers again, the term to use should be "Guardians" instead, suggesting that we maintain the area but not accept any Liabilities
Hope this is helpful for those unable to make it. Any thoughts or comments, note them down Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 9:17 am

As a new forum member I don't understand the reason why it needs a fence and a locked gate? What is wrong with leaving it as is? or is this another example of club expire building? or a case of a worried land owner!
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 11:43 am

The position is, (as I understand it), that the agents acting for the landowners are very concerned about liability issues and have advised the landowner to seal all the entrances/shafts.

However, one of the landowners (3 brothers?) is a good friend of our current chairman and, instead of sealing the entrances (cost issues perhaps?) has offered UCET the opportunity to "look after" (I don't know what the right term would be) the mine(s) provided that the entrance(s) are gated (limit potential liability) and that the existing fences are repaired at our cost.

As a caving club we are anxious to keep as many caves and mines accessible as possible and for the relatively small cost and work involved (requested by the landowner) we saw it as an equitable arrangement.

Personally, I would always favour having an open access but I do understand the landowners concerns and although we all (UCET club members etc.) carry insurance, not everyone who ventures down might do so.

Your point is well made simplyexploring Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 11:50 am

thanks for explaining

I suppose what I don't want to see like many others is yet another mine controlled and that is hard to get into. What sort of access system are you going to put in place? is it going to belong the lines what we are doing at Cwmorthin? or is it going to another club controlled invite mine only?
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 12:08 pm

Another good question Cool

I am not entirely sure what you are looking to achieve at Cwmorthin. We visited you 2 weeks ago (I guess you saw our little "fun" video) as we share a member ("Guy" or at least I think we do).

There is, however, no answer to your question yet as we (again, as I understand it) have not actually made any decision other than what you have seen in the first post (ie. that we want to keep it open).

I do know that there is a planned trip down to the Spar mine this coming Thursday (although I regret I cannot make it that evening) and I think the purpose of the trip is to consider how best to proceed.

Whatever happens though (dunno how well you know the mine), regardless of what happens at the "gate", there is a super huge hole to the surface which any determined caver could abseil down regardless of any other measures that are taken.

I personally like your system at Cwmorthin (combo lock) .....

This mine will become this clubs first "project" (again, dunno if that is the right word) and any hints, tips and advice you could offer would be very welcome and greatly appreciated Smile

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 12:22 pm

Ian wrote:
I am not entirely sure what you are looking to achieve at Cwmorthin.

Access for all, that is made simple with no hoops to jump through, no clubs to join, no insurance required!

We are achieving just that!

If you need help and advice of how we have achieved the above then please feel free to ask.
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 12:42 pm

Cool,

Fantastic goal Very Happy

As you have invited me to ask .... I gottta ask Idea , how do you "manage" the aspect of allowing entry for people with no insurance? I mean, if anything went wrong inside, who does the liability fall on?

Certainly this is the landowners primary concern with the Spar mine and, as you may have gathered from the initial post on this thread, it is a concern of some of the UCET members too.

If you have that issue nailed down then I think it would be a huge step forward for ALL caving clubs cheers

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 12:46 pm

Best thing to do is to email me your phone number and will give you a call one evening and explain

If you can achieve what we are doing at Cwmorthin (and there is no reason you should not be able to) then you make many many people in the exploring comunity very happy.
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Fri 05 Dec 2008, 12:49 pm

Very cool .... I am going to PM my number to you now (when I work out how to use the PM as I am new here too).

Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Sun 07 Dec 2008, 5:08 am

I'm a regular visitor to Hendre spar mine and have known about it and visited it for many years

I hope that this isn't a club empire building nonsense that seems to appear when other clubs, Grosvenor for instance get there hands on something good than lock it down at the flick of a switch and then say who can come and who cant and then you have to have a guide with you when you want to enter.

Your thoughts of a fee for people to enter should not be used maybe a donation box would be more than beneficial. giving people the chance to offer than commanding a entrance fee, as some who have been regular visitors for years will no doubt become a little disgruntled that some two bit club has claimed a mine for there own suggesting to fix a problem for the owner that has never existed.

A simple fence and signs which i have already seen put in place this week is enough to tell people who walk there dogs up there that there are shafts dotted around and care should be taken .

Club access control is ruining the chance for explorers to freely enter a mine or cave at there own risk. if someone enters a mine and is hurt its there fault not the owners

Don't try and fix a problem that doesn't exist
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Sun 07 Dec 2008, 8:22 am

Admin wrote:

Here are the main points:
Mick was insistant that the costs would not be higher than £100 for the actual fence, with members such as John supplying the wood for fence posts, Doug & Mick jointly supplying the metal for the door etc and members supplying the "labour";

There was discussion of a £1 Fee for entry bandied about. This was expanded upon, and it was suggested and generally accepted that it be applicable to visiting Guests only, and was to be set aside to cover primary Installation and ongoing Maintenance Costs,

BCA can provide funding for this sort of conservation and access work. It will come via your regional council. So talk to them and ask for some dosh.

With a grant you might not have to charge an access fee.
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Sun 07 Dec 2008, 9:11 am

Marty,

Thanks for your post....

I was at the UCET club meeting when the issue of the Spar mine was raised and the position is that the agents acting for the landowners have advised the landowner to seal the entrances.

You may have noticed recently that a lot of new signs have been added to the area warning of the mine entrances and, as things stand at this time, the landowner does not consent to visitors to the mine.

Rather than see the mine(s) close (I understand there are 3), we are in negotiation with the landowner to see if they can be kept open. So far as I understand (and I am only a "normal" member and not privvy to all the details) the landowner is content to allow them to be open provided the liability issues are dealt with and he has resquested them gated.

It is not a case of "UCET" empire building but rather a case of someone having to take ownership of "the problem" to ensure that we (as caving clubs) can still enjoy the benefits of the mine(s).

UCET is only a very small club in the world of caving and we are on "new ground". the user posting here "Simplyexploring" has offered some very useful help and tips and I especially like the system he has set up at Cwnmorthin (I can't speak for the other members of the club but I would guess they do too).

The matter of a "fee" was raised but not settled on at the meeting and this was only because the landowner wants to the fences repaired at our cost and as we do not have any funds we have to look for means to raise them. The club members were not in agreement on that issue and, again, the system used at Cwmorthin seems equitable (an honesty box inside the entrance).

So, it's not so much that we are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist ... if we do nothing the landowner will seal all the entrances Sad


Cookie,

Thanks for your post. I had no idea a grant might be available and I will telephone around the club seniors this evening and advise them of your suggestion (which is obviously very welcome Very Happy ) Hopefully, that will remove the issue of a fee altogether.

Please keep any ideas and suggestions coming as we are only a young club (4 years or so) and this "problem" of keeping the mine(s) open for "everyone" is the first time we have had to address such an issue and more experienced cavers (yourselves) may well have ready solutions to these problems that we have not considered Smile

Regards,

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Sun 07 Dec 2008, 4:20 pm

Hi Ian,

Just thought I'd bring up the subject of insurance as this is often not fully understood.

BCA insurance automatically indemnifies the land owner of any underground site regardless of the insurance status of the people visiting.

If the access is being controlled by a third party eg. UCET then insisting that visitors have BCA insurance does not indemnify those persons involved in administering the access, this is often misunderstood.
Access controlling body insurance is required for this.

Personal BCA cover (eg. CIM, DIM) only indemnifies the individual concerned from risks associated with an incident underground where another caver may be injured by their actions, it is unlikely that this will ever result in a claim from "one of your mates" and is to be discouraged in reality anyway as it will place the whole policy at risk. There is quite a large excess anyway which may act as a deterrent to frivolous claims

Bottom line is
1. The land owner is already indemnified.
2. Access body insurance is required to indemnify any third party administering access.
3. Individual insurance does not indemnify anybody else but the individual concerned. (It.s main purpose is to indemnify the club by the simple fact that if all the members are insured then so is the club as a whole).

Clubs and other access bodies that insist that everybody who visits is insured are mistaken if they believe that this insures them, the only way they can be indemnified is by taking access body cover out with BCA.

It is possible that they might pass the access control to their regional council which is already indemnified for access control/admin and then act as agents of that council for the purpose of administering the access. This would not only give them cover (as all persons acting on behalf of a regional council are covered by BCA cover) but also open an easy route to grant aid for the cost of any necessary works/materials, etc.

Hope this is of use

Les
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Mon 08 Dec 2008, 8:49 am

Hi Les,

Thanks for your reply - it is very useful.

I realise the issue of insurance is very confusing and must confess that I am still confused. May I perhaps go out on a bit of a limb and ask you some questions (I guess others in UCET may know the answers already but I also know this is your forte) .... Very Happy

1) I am not sure what you mean when you say the landowner is already indemnified. In this case, the landowner has had no contact with the BCA and his land agents have advised him to seal the entrances to remove liability issues if someone wanders in and is injured. Are you saying that the landowner is, in any event, indemnified by the BCA ?

2) Both you and Cookie refer to the "regional council". Do you mean the County Council (in this case Flintshire County Council) or is there a sub-division of the BCA known as a regional council? (sorry to be a noob).

3) If you do mean the local County Council, is there a specific department we should contact and will they make us jump through any hoops which we would not otherwise have to jump through (ie. HSE issues, maintenance of a visitors log etc.) ?

4) If the club doesn't opt to approach the council (the landowner would rather just seal the entrances than have to suffer any "hassle"), I assume from your explanation that the club would require insurance. Even though every member of the club is insured (the green card) I assume that this is inadequate and additional insurance specific to the mine will be required. That being so, is there a fixed premium or is it dependant on the size of the mine etc. (bearing in mind there are 3 mines) ?

I hope you don't mind me asking but as you say, it is confusing Rolling Eyes

Regards,

Ian
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Mon 08 Dec 2008, 12:50 pm

Ian wrote:
Hi Les,

Thanks for your reply - it is very useful.

I realise the issue of insurance is very confusing and must confess that I am still confused. May I perhaps go out on a bit of a limb and ask you some questions (I guess others in UCET may know the answers already but I also know this is your forte) .... Very Happy

1) I am not sure what you mean when you say the landowner is already indemnified. In this case, the landowner has had no contact with the BCA and his land agents have advised him to seal the entrances to remove liability issues if someone wanders in and is injured. Are you saying that the landowner is, in any event, indemnified by the BCA ?


Hi Ian, I'll try and answer in line so it refers to the relevent bit.

My understanding is that the BCA policy explicitly indemnifies any land owner against any liability that they may incur by allowing cavers on their land. This is a blanket policy that requires no contact with the land owner. More clarification can be obtained from BCA's Legal & Insurance officer or the Insurance manager. Contact details are on the BCA web site.

Quote :


2) Both you and Cookie refer to the "regional council". Do you mean the County Council (in this case Flintshire County Council) or is there a sub-division of the BCA known as a regional council? (sorry to be a noob).

The regional council is the regional caving council, in your case I would reckon it is Cambrian Caving Council. They effectively act as the regional arm of BCA on all matters "Conservation & Access".

Quote :


3) If you do mean the local County Council, is there a specific department we should contact and will they make us jump through any hoops which we would not otherwise have to jump through (ie. HSE issues, maintenance of a visitors log etc.) ?

Not the county council, see above.

Quote :

4) If the club doesn't opt to approach the council (the landowner would rather just seal the entrances than have to suffer any "hassle"), I assume from your explanation that the club would require insurance. Even though every member of the club is insured (the green card) I assume that this is inadequate and additional insurance specific to the mine will be required. That being so, is there a fixed premium or is it dependant on the size of the mine etc. (bearing in mind there are 3 mines) ?

The way the BCA policy works is that there is one large policy for everything and every one. BCA has to recover the cost of this vast premium from it's members and how it collects it is based on the perceived risk you pose to the policy.
Hence the insurance contribution expected from a non caver is less than that for a caver but then the risk is much less as well so it's fair.

Access control/administration is a far more risky (insurance risk that is) operation than caving and consequently the "body" that controls/administers the access is expected to contribute more. I am not sure of the current amount but I am sure it can be found on BCA's web site.

Regional caving councils (CNCC, CSCC, Cambrian, etc) are generally access controlling bodies already and are indemnified by BCA as part of their function. Other groups, such as Friends of Cwmorthin for example will pay an "access body fee" as their contribution to the insurance pot. The policy allows for any person (whether a BCA member or not and whether insured elsewhere or not) to be indemnified by the BCA policy provided they are acting as agents of the access body. This means that if access is nominally already vested in an existing body that is indemnified by BCA then they can have "agents" doing the work and they will all be indemnified (concerning their actions whilst carrying out any "works" be that actual work such as making or repairing gates or admin stuff such as administering keys or permits, etc).

The important thing is that insisting that a person is insured to visit a site does not convey any insurance cover to anybody else other than that person. This is the bit that is clearly misunderstood by all the groups that insist you must have BCA insurance to visit a site.

Quote :

I hope you don't mind me asking but as you say, it is confusing Rolling Eyes

Regards,

Ian

Of course I dont mind. I wouldn't have entered the debate if I couldn't bring anything useful.

Feel free to ask.

Les
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 2:46 am

Hi Les,

Thank you for your swift and detailed response Very Happy

I think I understand it now and I think a good way forward is for us to contact the Cambrian Caving Council (whom are already insured) and this should enable us (all cavers) to continue to use the mine(s) without anyone (especially the landowner who is currently being advised to seal them) having to worry about being sued.

As this forum is very new, I know that a lot of the club members have not "found it" yet and I am now in the process of passing on your very helpful advice ..... cheers

..... I am really glad that someone (ie. you!) does understand the matter of insurance as it is a very convoluted matter Shocked

Regards,

Ian

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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 11:53 am

Hi Ian,

Two final things

1. This is my understanding of how it all works, I'm pretty confident that I have it correct BUT, for a definitive answer you really should check with the BCA Insurance manager or the BCA Legal & Insurance officer.

2. Land Owner liability is only indemnified with respect to Cavers accessing the site. There is other legislation such as the Occupiers' Liability Act 1957, Occupiers' Liability Act 1984, Mines and Quarries Act 1954, Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, etc. These acts of parliament make various demands on land owners that I cannot advise on as it is not my sphere of expertise, However it is probable that to discharge their legal liabilities with respect to the various laws they need only fit a suitable fence around the shafts with the relevant signage. I don't believe they need seal the mine or carry out any drastic works concerning the site. Again BCA's Legal and Insurance officer can advise you.

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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 1:37 pm

Les, you have been incredibly helpful and you are a star sunny

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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 1:43 pm

Just glad to be able to help

Les
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 1:53 pm

Im glad it seems to be working out that we all may still be able to use this mine it should you be able to solve liability problems it would be a real shame for all of us to loose access to it. (Apologies for the "two bit club" slur in my earlier post Ian im just hoping UCET dont go the same way as Grosvenor)

Regards Martin
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 1:56 pm

Martin,

No worries .... I think we all get a bit flustered from time to time when our caves & mines are threatened with closure Crying or Very sad

Thanks for your post Smile

Regards,

Ian

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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 2:25 pm

I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone on this topic, especially those non-members for all their input.

Caving (and Mines... Laughing ) is important to us all, and if everyone pitches in when and where they can, it'll make the future of this noble yet grubby, muddy, wet sport a very bright one Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Tue 09 Dec 2008, 3:40 pm

I'm just as keen as the next man (or woman) to keep access as free and open as possible.

Good luck with the owners and please don't hesitate to ask for help if you need it.

I am continually frustrated by various "groups" who continually try and "reinvent the wheel" as it were with regards to access. There are too many groups that don't understand things like insurance and the various laws and end up with unnecessarily restrictive access conditions, just because they didn't understand the way the insurance and other stuff works.

BCA actually set up the insurance scheme to solve all the insurance problems that cavers have and the policy cover requirements were actually specified by "informed cavers" in an attempt to cover everything of concern to cavers (and mine explorers of course) including digging, winches and even explosives.
The Legal & Insurance officer is continually studying the various legislation to try and keep ahead of the game so that cavers can continue to vist their favourite sites unhindered.

I am certain he will give you any and all the help you may need when dealing with "officialdom".

Please use the resources that BCA and the regional councils provide. It is nobody's intention to tie people up in red tape and bullshit, just to be available to help cavers to get underground. It is all a means to an end and not an attempt to control.
Remember, the officers and agents of the caving "establishment" are cavers too.
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PostSubject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre   Wed 10 Dec 2008, 12:32 pm

hello les w . just thought i'd say thanks for the info regarding poachers a while ago . all sorted and all that . same land owner as spar mine as it happens . A MAN WITH A MIND FULL OF INFO
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